Sunday, September 02, 2007

John Humphreys: In God We Doubt

This isn't bad, according to me.

Humphreys has several points, but primarily he's concerned to gesture at an argument in defense of good religious folk against the "radical atheists." Though I'm an atheist myself, I've got little time for the Richard Dawkinses of the world. However...it does seem a tad odd to me how much of this kind of thing is going around. Two thousand years of getting Christianity shoved down our throats...but a couple of popularized books rejecting religion and all of a sudden it's a crisis, and Christianity is besieged. Faith is, apparently, an extraordinarily fragile thing...

Thing for us non-radicals on either side to keep in mind is that dogmatists and kooks on one side generate more dogmatists and kooks on the other. Without the inquisition, Pat Roberts, Jimmy Swaggart, and the innumerable Church Ladies all across the country, you get fewer Richard Dawkinses.

Folks like me, for example, don't generally have contempt for sensible Christians. Hell, some of my best friends are Christians, and I even like talking about philosophy with them, and I even learn things from it. But it's the zealots and dogmatists that embody a stereotype of the ignorant theist, believing the craziest things for the craziest reasons. And this part of our public discussion, like so much of it, takes place largely in the shadow of such stereotypes. And I'm not only talking about ignorant Bible-thumpers, either. I've known plenty of intelligent, articulate, well-educated dogmatists, smugly uttering theistic nonsense as if it were the most obvious common sense.

Well, to say the least, it ain't.

But it is a heck of an interesting possibility, remote though it may be. But Christians who act as if their unlikely theory were true beyond any questioning are just as wrong and just as annoying as any other people who act as if an unlikely theory were so obvious that only a fool or a villain could doubt it. I don't mind someone who wants to discuss the possibility that UFOs are intelligent visitors from other planets; what I do mind is frothing-at-the-mouth lunatics who insist that I'm a puppet of The Man for being skeptical about it. Qua intriguing possibility, the Abrahamic conception of God has a lot to be said for it, I think. But only someone who doesn't understand it very well could insist that it's obviously obvious. In fact, it's obviously not obvious--though it could turn out to be true.

My guess is that what people really have unshakable faith in is goodness; and, perhaps, in the proposition that there's more to the universe than just atoms in the void. They anthropomorphize these things though, and mistakenly think that the only way for there to be goodness is for there to be a divine lawmaker, and the only way for there to be more is if it's a big, powerful, ghostly person. Mix this in with the fact that almost everyone believes whichever religion they were taught as a child, and, well, there you have it. If it's hard for a man to understand something if his paycheck depends on his not understanding it, so much the more so when it's his eternal life that's at stake.

Too bad more people don't read real philosophy--and too bad there isn't more good, accessible philosophy for them to read. I actually think that hope for and faith in goodness and meaning are among the most rational of things. And I think if more people could see that such things are separable from belief in, e.g., the divinity of Jesus, we could have a calmer and more reasoned public discussion of all this stuff.

[via Metafilter]

38 Comments:

Blogger Tom Van Dyke said...


Thing for us non-radicals on either side to keep in mind is that dogmatists and kooks on one side generate more dogmatists and kooks on the other. Without the inquisition, Pat Roberts, Jimmy Swaggart, and the innumerable Church Ladies all across the country, you get fewer Richard Dawkinses.


Hmmm. I suspected, and at least the Wiki bears me out, that Christian fundamentalism arose in the late 19th century out of an opposition to modernity, specifically when science began to assert a claim to philosophical (metaphysical? theological?) truth.

The snake eats its tail, it seems.

1:23 AM  
Blogger Winston Smith said...

Well, the Catholic church was already on the job long before that. One could start by citing the Galileo incident as just one of an almost endless list of abuses.

It's even possible that some of the seemingly fairly extreme atheistic inclinations of contemporary philosophy result from the fact that christianity had a stranglehold on the discipline until about a hundred years ago. It's even possible that there might be something of a pendulum effect after awhile.

It's hard to believe that religious insanity was itself merely a reaction to, say, materialism. Possible, of course, but not likely. Though I'll bet there is a bit of reverberation.

8:19 AM  
Blogger Tom Van Dyke said...

The Galileo thing is a bit overblown. It just took time to evaluate and assimilate his destruction of the Aristotelian cosmological system, which had been picked up by Aquinas.

Looking back, it's clear that Galileo was right, but at the time, it could have been just one more wacky idea. Galileo had few if any peers to evaluate his work, after all. That's why he's Galileo.

And yes, I'd agree that the pendulum has swung, Richard Dawkins notwithstanding. The problem with Dawkins isn't that he's an atheist, but that he's an anti-theist, a position indefensible even by the self-reference of his own religion of reason.

2:58 PM  
Blogger The Mystic said...

Saying "The Galileo thing is a bit overblown" is the most ridiculous thing I think you've ever said.

And that's an accomplishment.

You're right, the church declaring his well-founded ideas as "heretical" and "contrary to scripture" and therefore requiring him to recant his assertions, be imprisoned, and banning the book along with any works he might produce in the future from being disseminated is being "overblown".

The most hilarious part is that you attempt to defend the church with "Well, how should they have known? His work wasn't peer-reviewed!"

And here I am, writing a response, clearly failing to learn from the mistakes and wastes of my time that have been my previous responses, evidenced by the fact that you keep posting this BS.

5:46 PM  
Blogger Winston Smith said...

Yeah, Tom, that seems like sophistry to me.

The point isn't that the church *disagreed* with Galileo. It's rather that it dogmatically refused to accept the truth--or even look through the telescope--and then punished Galileo--and many others--for disagreeing with church dogma.

Everybody's wrong sometimes. That's not the problem. The problem isn't even being wrong over and over again. The problem is a repeated pattern of punishing those who disagree with you. Oh, and the dogmatism.

It's not like there's nothing good about the church--far from it. But pretending like its history isn't largely shameful is just silly.

6:50 PM  
Blogger Tom Van Dyke said...

It's more complicated than that. The overblown part is already proven by our special friend: Galileo wasn't imprisoned---he was under house arrest and sent home some months later. The whole thing was quite civil, and neither was the opposition to him by Bellarmine mere pique and power games.

This isn't to say it wasn't one of the low-tide marks in the church's history, but there are more details about what actually happened than the prevailing narrative, complications with the Copernican system that Galileo was perceived to have supported, the church's alliance with Aristotelian cosmology/metaphysics, but no one cares. But I just don't make stuff up, nor do I dispute any question of fact without double-checking first. So please, drop the torches and call off the parade.

(Odd you should use Polemarchus' formulation on justice, WS. I feel on the receiving end of it often. Friends get the benefit of the doubt, enemies the hammer.)

7:12 PM  
Blogger Jim Bales said...

WS wrote:
I actually think that hope for and faith in goodness and meaning are among the most rational of things. And I think if more people could see that such things are separable from belief in, e.g., the divinity of Jesus, we could have a calmer and more reasoned public discussion of all this stuff.

Hear, hear!

I was raised a Methodist, am now an agnostic (if not atheist), and attend chruch weekly.

Why?

1) My wife is devout, and insists that our children be raise as Christians.

2) It is a place where, weekly, my children get to hear important messages about how humans should treat each other. They also hear things that I consider to be false, things that I, too, was raised to believe in but later turned away from.

3) It is a community of people who strive to do good in this world, and are significantly reducing pain, fear, and suffering for people locally and elsewhere.

The group that is probably the most thorough in striving to, as WS put it, "[separate] hope for and faith in goodness and meaning ... from belief in, e.g., the divinity of Jesus" are the Unitarian Universalists.

Those whose belief is strong find the UU stance far to wishy-washy for their taste. So do those whose disbelief is strong.

Oddly enough, while I am a not-too-intense non-believer, I, too, find the UU stance too wishy-washy for my own taste. I don't think that I can explain why.

Anyone else have experience with UU, or other group attempting to achieve the goal of helping people "see that hope for and faith in goodness and meaning ... are separable from belief in, e.g., the divinity of Jesus"?

9:30 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The overblown part is already proven by our special friend: Galileo wasn't imprisoned---he was under house arrest and sent home some months later.

From the Wikipedia:


With the loss of many of his defenders in Rome because of Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, Galileo was ordered to stand trial on suspicion of heresy in 1633. The sentence of the Inquisition was in three essential parts:

* Galileo was required to recant his heliocentric ideas; the idea that the Sun is stationary was condemned as "formally heretical." However, while there is no doubt that Pope Urban VIII and the vast majority of Church officials did not believe in heliocentrism, Catholic doctrine is defined by the pope when he speaks ex cathedra (from the Chair of Saint Peter) in matters of faith and morals. While Church officials did condemn Galileo, heliocentrism was never formally or officially condemned by the Catholic Church, except insofar as it held (for instance, in the formal condemnation of Galileo) that "The proposition that the sun is in the center of the world and immovable from its place is absurd, philosophically false, and formally heretical; because it is expressly contrary to Holy Scriptures", and the converse as to the Sun's not revolving around the Earth.[30]
* He was ordered imprisoned; the sentence was later commuted to house arrest.
* His offending Dialogue was banned; and in an action not announced at the trial, publication of any of his works was forbidden, including any he might write in the future.[31]

After a period with the friendly Ascanio Piccolomini (the Archbishop of Siena), Galileo was allowed to return to his villa at Arcetri near Florence, where he spent the remainder of his life under house arrest, going blind and dying from natural causes on January 8, 1642.

11:50 PM  
Blogger Tom Van Dyke said...

* Galileo was required to recant his heliocentric ideas; the idea that the Sun is stationary was condemned as "formally heretical." However, while there is no doubt that Pope Urban VIII and the vast majority of Church officials did not believe in heliocentrism, Catholic doctrine is defined by the pope when he speaks ex cathedra (from the Chair of Saint Peter) in matters of faith and morals.


Galileo was not condemned ex cathedra. Neither was ex cathedra formalized until the late 19th century, and I suspect it will not endure the test of time or reason.

So just don't go there, man, especially from the Wiki. It's somewhat accurate, but also contains contentious nonsense.

To my memory, I've never made a truth claim on behalf of Catholic/Christian theology here or anywhere in public. (My personal beliefs on all that are private.) Believe what you will. I speak up only when Catholic/Christian thought is misrepresented or misunderstood, and you might note that in this thread, it wasn't me who brought up the Catholic Church.

I don't excoriate you or anyone else for errors of fact or understanding. Most Catholics are under the same impressions you and the general public are. Wikis don't help.

12:13 AM  
Blogger The Mystic said...

Just to set the record straight:

I said the church required him to be imprisoned, you disagree, claiming Wikipedia is wrong. So here's something from the University Corporation for Atmospheric Research (http://web.hao.ucar.edu/public/education/sp/images/galileo.html)

"On June 22 1633 Galileo was forced to kneel in front of the Roman Inquisition and recant his beliefs in the Copernican doctrine and the motion of the Earth. He was then sentenced to life imprisonment, which was almost immediately commuted to perpetual house arrest without visitors, ostensibly for having disobeyed a 1616 injunction by Cardinal Bellarmine "...not to defend or teach the Copernican doctrine...". Galileo's Dialogue was put on the Index of Prohibited Books, as well as Copernicus' De Revolutionibus and the books of Kepler dealing with planetary theory.

Galileo's sentence was upheld rather rigidly despite numerous appeals to the Inquisition and the Pope by Galileo himself, as well as numerous prominent scientists and statesmen in Italy and Europe."

I like how perpetual house arrest with no visitors is, according to you, is "quite civil". Regardless, the fact remains that I was not "overblowing" the issue - the sentence was life imprisonment and it was then commuted to perpetual house arrest with no visitors.

The point is that he was imprisoned and books were banned for being thought crimes. The mere notion that you'd try to sleaze your way out of it, even going so far as to claim it "civil" is just ludicrous.

12:56 AM  
Blogger Winston Smith said...

Yeah, Tom, everything I've ever read on the subject said that he got life under house arrest.

There IS a strain of thought that tries to defend the Church...mostly postmodernists and irrationalists who argue, roughly, that it was just two dueling "belief systems" anyway, so refusing to look through the telescope (note: a possibly apocryphal part of the tale) was justified. As was imprisonment because, hey, science is just politics by other means.

(Explicit attempt to get you to see the error of your ways by sneakily pointing to nuts who agree with you. But not intended to be nasty...)

7:30 AM  
Blogger Random Michelle K said...

My main comment on Galileo is that there is a very good book called Galileo's Daughter by Dava Sobel, that discusses this history in relationship to the letters that Galileo and his daughter wrote during his house imprisonment.

Yes, he was labeled a heretic. Yes, he was imprisoned to house arrest. But he did have some friends in the church and he was not executed like many other heretics. Whether you choose to see this as leniency on the part of the Catholic church, or dogmatism on the part of the church is going to be a matter of opinion.

And as much as I hate to say it, Tom is right. Christian fundamentalism did arise in the US, however, it was slightly more complicated than a simple reaction to modernity. Yes, that was part of it, but these sects thrived in American earlier than the 19th century, in part because of the isolation of the US as compared to Europe. Once you were outside of the cities, there was no one to control how you worshiped. Additionally, there were not regular services, and so traveling ministers (especially pentecostal ones) were able to gain followers when they came through an area and had their revivals--which was the only church many individuals had access too.

Yes, there was a good deal of reaction to modernity--and that happened in all three monotheistic faiths, not just Christianity. As people were confronted with the modern world--and many of the ills it created (see: colonialism, child labor in factories, the mine wars in Applachia, the pollution created by modern factories, the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire, etc) some reacted by seeing this change as evil, and a developing a desire to return to the fictional "good old days".

But just as much modern American religion was due to the isolationism created by rural farms, homes, and settlements.

I could go on, but all my books are at home, so that's all I can dredge from my memory. (If not for the fact that it would be completely useless and is totally unrelated to my work, I'd love to get a degree in religious history. Maybe when I'm independently wealthy.)

9:15 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

TVD, the last sentence that you object to in the Wiki article is a reference to the present day from the tense, and not a reference to the way things stood in Galileos' time.

The gist of my post was to falsify the assertions you made in how Galileo was treated. In that endeavor I was successful.

10:50 AM  
Blogger Tom Van Dyke said...

Victory dance.

Galileo wasn't punished as much as quarantined, not a sophistic distinction. To write "imprisoned" in full knowledge that he wasn't speaks ill of the writer.

Not to say that the treatment of Galileo was justified. But the [Catholic] thinker Francisco Suarez' work was banned by England's James I for questioning the divine right of kings. It's how things were done in those days, and a 21st century condemnation lacks understanding.

As for the fundamentalists, Darwin was a big deal, as it threatened not only their theology, but philosophy of man. I have a bigger problem with the tenacity of their opposition today, where the philosophical tools against social Darwinism are available. (CS Peirce among them, I suppose. He hated it.)

3:37 PM  
Blogger Random Michelle K said...

If you're going to pick nits, quarantine is used primarily to describe someone who is isolated to to a possible state of infection that could be a danger to the population at large.

And calling a house arrest a quarantine as opposed to an imprisonment is in and of itself an interesting distinction, especially considering that "imprison" is defined as "to put in or as if in prison": confine

I do believe that house arrest meets that definition.

4:00 PM  
Blogger Tom Van Dyke said...

Technically. Does it convey the truth? Does it intend to convey the truth?

The truth is more complicated than "imprison," which conjures many inaccurate connotations, like suffering and punishment. That's not how it went down.

5:11 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

TVD, in my excerpt from the Wiki, it clearly states that

He was ordered imprisoned; the sentence was later commuted to house arrest.

Which, BTW, actually supports your assertion that Galileo was never subjected to durance vile, so I'm puzzled as to your Victory Dance choreography, unless it's a post-modern work in progress.

It's how things were done in those days, and a 21st century condemnation lacks understanding.

Yes, one could say that about slavery, debt imprisonment, etc., but that doesn't take out the essential injustice of what took place.

After all, even Pope JPII issued a statement regretting what happened to Galileo.

Writing that the affair was overblown is a bit
much, unless you're willing to undergo house arrest and blog about how it's much better than staying at the Greybar Hotel.

conjures many inaccurate connotations, like suffering and punishment.

I don't think I would experience house arrest as without some elements of suffering and punishment. YMMV

I love how you get into nuance and minimization to the point where no judgements can be rendered, a firm stance is a sign of a mind that mistakes oversimpified, inaccurate versions of history and doesn't acknowledge how complex a given situation was at the time.

Quawrentine does have the connotation of a disease being kept from spreading throughout the general public, so I'm pretty sure you don't want to keep riding this horse much longer.

7:18 PM  
Blogger Winston Smith said...

Are you guys really trying to reason with Tom on this?

C'mon. He's clearly wrong, there's no real question about it, and yet continues to bob and weave, and you guys are going right along.

I mean, he's willing to argue that a forced recantation and house arrest for life is a civil response to telling the truth, that a sentence of imprisonment isn't a sentence of imprisonment because it was later reduced to something less unjust, and that the whole thing was, ya' know, just a friendly little dust-up between Galileo and Barberini.

When one looks back on the crimes of the Catholic church, one is often baffled, wondering "how did they get away with this sh*t for so long?" Answer: because people are willing to twist and bend and spin until black looks white...freedom looks like slavery, war looks like peace, etc. Tom's willingness to argue sophistically on behalf of such evil thugs is on a continuum with their evil thuggery. It's the kind of thing that contributed to the triumph of evil men. And it now serves to try to apologize for their crimes.

Shame on you Tom. Really.

8:51 PM  
Blogger Tom Van Dyke said...

Perhaps, then, I should be confined to house arrest (imprisoned) and be forced to recant. Shame, WS? Lock me up. Quarantine me.

Really, sir, I think a conscientious review of the facts (which have some here have undertaken on their own, from sources other than the Wiki) have found the matter not the open and shut case that the conventional narrative makes it.

I myself had the same first impressions, and they were troubling. It was only through a sincere inquiry that I discovered the prevailing narrative was overly brutal and contentious.

There was thuggery, there were crimes, and there were evil men in the history of the Catholic Church. Some of them even sat on the Chair of St. Peter, OK?

But this one's far more interesting than crime and thuggery.

2:03 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Next:

Toquemada: Misunderstood defender of the Church, or brutal enforcer?

8:03 AM  
Blogger The Mystic said...

Instead of asking Tom, you guys could just go to Conservapedia and do some REAL research.

Conservapedia clearly shows a similar point that Tom's trying to make. They argue that torture during the Inquisition is "overblown by modern scholars" because REALLY only about 35% of those who could've been tortured for their crimes were.

Aren't the Catholics lenient? Just like with Galileo. He should've been executed right there, but not only did they spare him and give him life imprisonment, they later commuted that to life house arrest! If you guys would just do some real research (conservapedia) you'd find that the church spares all sorts of heathens and heretics.

They're really quite civil when you consider the drastic nature of the offense these heretics provide. Challenging the word of God..psh. I wouldn't be surprised if the Catholics went to hell for being too soft on the heretics.

From conservapedia: "Because Galileo had overstated the scientific case for the heliocentric theory and given some dubious theological arguments, the Inquisition ruling decided that: 1) the immobility of the Sun at the center of the universe was absurd in philosophy and formally heretical, and that 2) the mobility of Earth was absurd in philosophy and at least erroneous in theology. [3] The following month the Church’s Index of Forbidden Books required that nine sentences in Copernicus's book be corrected.

Looking back, it is hard to understand the decision, but in defense of the arbiters of that time, the view through Galileo's telescope was nothing like the quality of telescopes today. To untrained laymen, it would be difficult to know what was being viewed. Also, the concept of stellar parallax, a condition that had to exist if Galileo was right, turned out to be completely false. (Parallax is real, but due to the incredibly far distances of the stars in relationship to the earth's movement around the sun, it could not be detected until 1838, over 200 years later.)"

See, those guys just couldn't see through Galileo's telescope! And like Tom already said, Galileo's work wasn't peer reviewed, so they really had no choice but to reject it because his scientific work was shoddy at best. Also, stellar parallax turned out to be completely false. It's also real!

This is the kind of reasoning you guys lack, and why Tom is always right and you're always wrong. Morons.

I'm with Tom now. After doing some real research, I've been shown the light. You guys just want to pick on the Catholic church, ignoring the fact that these heretics like Galileo deserved death and the church let them off the hook with a simple book banning, forced recantation, and perpetual house arrest (NOT imprisonment - conflating the two is CLEARLY intellectually irresponsible, you jackasses).

8:38 AM  
Blogger Random Michelle K said...

Mystic,

I have clearly seen the error of my ways.

I humbly beg your forgiveness.

Michelle K

8:57 PM  
Blogger Tom Van Dyke said...

I accept your surrender.

Unfortunately, unlike philosophy and politics, theology is not a bloodsport, and so unlike the Gorn, I cannot be merciful and quick.

As your punishment, I will let you live.

10:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm reminded of the anecdote where during a conversation with Claire Booth Luce, the Pope at one point was forced to say:

"But madam, I am Catholic too."

11:32 PM  
Blogger The Mystic said...

Haha, you all surrendered. You all saw it. Tom and I are victors. VICTORY OVER THE HEATHENS!

12:37 AM  
Blogger Tom Van Dyke said...

Not exactly, O my friend-someday.

You're the Gorn. Which is OK, because neither of us are Metrons.

1:10 AM  
Blogger The Mystic said...

Well I can tell you straight up that I'll be your Metroid if you'll be my Samus Aran.

So it's not the case that neither of us are Metroids, which is what I think you were saying.

Anyway, I think our argument is indestructible and they lose. Ownage.

8:30 AM  
Blogger Tom Van Dyke said...

No.

No, I won't kill you. Maybe you thought you were...protecting yourself...when you attacked the outpost.

No, I won't kill him! Do you hear? You'll have to get your entertainment someplace else!

9:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

No, TVD, you're rather like this fellow who is more humanoid and in some respects more terrifying that a stray Gorn or Borg:

Anan 7: Won't you join me in a drink, Captain? You'll find our trova most interesting.

Kirk: I didn't come to drink.

Anan 7: I assume that is what you used to destroy Disintegration Chamber 12.

Kirk: An efficient weapon. I'm not afraid of using it.

Anan 7: My first impression was correct. You are a barbarian.

Kirk: I am?

Anan 7: Don't sound so incredulous, Captain. Of course you are.
We all are.

A killer first, a builder second.
A hunter, a warrior, and--let's be honest-- a murderer.

That is our joint heritage, is it not?

Kirk: We're less cold-blooded about it than you are.

2:19 AM  
Blogger The Mystic said...

This has descended into unprecedented nerddom.

7:43 AM  
Blogger Random Michelle K said...

Yes, but it's FUN nerddom.

And you've not seen nerdom till you've seen my husband channeling Chief O'Brien, channeling one of the Dax hosts.

That's nerddom.

But also? Hilarious.

1:09 PM  
Blogger Tom Van Dyke said...

Colm Meaney, the worst actor of his generation. Michelle, I'd pay to see your mister perform that one.

Dr. Avenger, I agree with Kirk that there are "bloodless solutions"---that are not solutions at all---that are worse than war itself, which at least has the virtue of being so horrible that people may become desperate enough to consider making peace. To compare me to Anan Seven, if that was your intention, is a calumny---I'm admittedly not as civilized.

But do let us agree: Mea Three was a major babe.

Mystic, I don't mean to leave you out, but you know I'm a classicist, and so a mere quick google of the Metrons would have made it easy to discern my nerdy intentions. That you perceive what you don't yet comprehend as imprecision on my part, or as you so eloquently put it, BS, is a major stumbling block to fruitful colloquy, not to mention fun.

And no, I cannot become your Samus Aran even if it would make you my friend. Sorry, man.

9:55 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I would contend that Anan 7 is better at deception than you are, and if you're not as civilized as a self-admitted 'barbarian', well, as they say, the rest is left as an exercise for the reader...........

11:49 PM  
Blogger Winston Smith said...

Jesus, you guys are nerds even by MY standards...

7:46 AM  
Blogger The Mystic said...

lol I have no idea what's going on anymore

I made a joke that Tom had descended into depths of nerddom so deep that even a nerd so great as I would've had to, as he noted, googled his sci-fi reference to know what he was talking about

And now I think I'm being made fun of for not googling it.

All I can do is laugh. Sorry if I was offensive Tom, just kiddin'.

2:20 PM  
Blogger Tom Van Dyke said...

OK, but I still can't be your Samus Aran.

4:24 PM  
Blogger The Mystic said...

It's cool - she's a hot chick space bounty hunter with a canon for an arm. It wasn't really feasible from the start.

8:14 AM  
Blogger Tom Van Dyke said...

Yes, I googled her.

4:29 PM  

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